The videos can be found here :
part 1
part 2
If you only have time for 1, watch the second video and pay close attention to what happens when everyone leaves. You may have to turn up the volume a bit.
This is the question period, verbatim after the Solicitors initial presentation.
Chairman Black:
Thank you very much, I appreciate that. Any questions from the committee
members, counselor Wells?
Councilor Wells:
The purpose of the dep, oh, of the petition, what does it say please?
Mr. Cline : They want
the road open, they want the by-law quashed, or repealed, by-law open, oh
sorry, the road open.
Councilor Wells: Reopened!
Mr. Cline : Reopened
Chairman Black: Anything
further Councilor Wells?
Councilor Wells:
While you were preparing ah your uh presentation, did anyone call write, phone,
in terms of uh, no we want it left the way it is?
Mr. Cline : Not
that I’m aware of; you might ask the audience who are here as interested rate payers’
who want the road reopened. That may be
of some assistance to the committee to do that. Maybe, if you raise your
hand, those rate payers here involved in this that want the road open.
A show of hands by approximately 50 people.
Councilor Wells:
That’s fine, that’s ok
Mayor Travale: And uh, just you, please if you could shut
the, those devices off, please uh. Councilor Wells, you don’t have to stand.
And we have counselor Oliver.
Councilor Oliver:
Thank you Mr. Klein, I, you, when you were making your presentation, I wasn’t
quite sure what your deputation was going to conclude with, but now you’ve said
you’ve now, you, are you representing all of those 147 people, or are you . . .
?
Mr. Cline : My clients
for the purpose of the record are Mr. Kenline and Mr. Squires, they’re
spokespersons for all of the neighboring residents in the area, as I understand
it.
Councilor Oliver:
I see and and all of the folks who have signed the petition that want the road
open, do they, do you have any idea whether they use it regularly, and if so,
for what purpose? Because that road is impassable a good portion of the year,
of course.
Mr. Cline : I
guess it depends what your definition of impassable is.
Chairman Black: Just
uh one moment, if
Mayor Travale: Ask
him to leave the chamber or turn it off!
Mayor Travale: Could
you shut the device off please, is it shut off?
It is shut off, thank you very much! Carry on!
Mr. Cline : I, as I
indicated, I think it depends on what your, what your definition of impassable
is concerned, my information is that yes, certain times of the year
it’s not perfect, but with a little bit of maintenance, it could be made much
much better. They don’t expect the highway 407, I’m not aware of counsel
having any complaints about the particular maintenance from rate payers of that
particular road. I know from own personal knowledge, I’ve had occasion to take my grandson fishing
down there, and yes, I have had occasions where I, I am kind of leery about
whether I can get through, but I’ve always navigated it through. The last
people I would consider calling if I got stuck would be the OPP or the county of Norfolk.
Chairman Black: Thank you, ok, thank you Councilor Oliver, Councilor
Columbus,
Councilor Columbus: Thank you
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Klein, you mention the name Mr. Kenline, is he one of the
owners that’s been shut out by uh the, is he one of the property owners there?
Mr. Cline : Mr. Kenline
was approached by a staff person, as I understand it, when the road closing was contemplated. He was asked if he would consent to the
road closing. I’m told that Mr. Kenline indicated to the staff person that he
would like to talk to his neighbors before he gave a commitment, and two or
three or four weeks after that discussion with the staff person, did contact
the staff person only to be told by the staff person that council had already
dealt with the matter and that was it. He was given a key, which he has and but that certainly does not address the issue of access as far as that
particular property is, and from that road from the point of view of
other rate payers. Essentially what you’ve created, I presume by inadvertence, you’ve created two classified, or two classes of citizens, those with keys,
and those without.
Councilor Columbus: Thank you
sir
Chairman Black: Ok,
Councilor Chanyi,
Councilor Chanyi:
Thank you Mr. Chair, Um, you represent, two clients, is that correct then Mr. Klein?
Mr. Cline : My clients
are, I was contacted by, Misters Kenline and Squires, I attended at a meeting
with a number of rate payers, and as I said for purposes of Madame clerks
records, my clients have been, are Squires and Kenline and I understand they are spokespersons for
the crowd that you see.
Councilor Chanyi: Mr.
Chair, I believe the people paying you are two, ha. Is that well, I . . .I won’t go that further on that one.
Mr. Cline : well I do
work awfully cheap but not for free
Councilor Chanyi:
Yeah I know. Ha ha ha. Um , now there was a public meeting that was held last
week, is that correct?
Mr. Cline : No, there
was no public meeting that I am aware of, at least I wasn’t there, I had a
meeting with individuals out at out at Mr. Squires’ house.
Councilor Chanyi:
um hmm, well that’s very strange because there was a brochure put out into the
public um, Issues concerning all citizens of Norfolk County, Meeting for the
Public September 25, 7pm, 995 4th Concession, east of 59.
Mr. Cline : I can’t
comment on that, I have no knowledge of that.
I’d like to see it when you are finished with it, if I may. I have no
knowledge of it.
Councilor Chanyi:
You can pass that over. It was advertised as a public meeting, um I called Mr.
Squires to find out, you know, is the meeting on, what time, can I attend, I
was told no. It was a public meeting,
but I was told that I could not attend, and the direction was that it came from
you, and I just wondered what the reason was that you indicated that I wouldn’t
be able to attend?
Mr. Cline : Well I, I
don’t know frankly, any of your discussions with Mr. Squires, Mr. Squires is
here if you want to address it, Mr Squires?
Councilor Chanyi:
I’ve spoken with him
Mr. Cline : Yeah. You
want to address that Mike?
Mr. Squires: No.
Chairman Black: Council, Permission to allow Mr. Squires to
answer the question? A show of hands?
Ok, there’s one, two, three, four, enough to permit him to answer the question
at the podium.
Councilor Chanyi:
OK.
Chairman Black: Yes,
go ahead. You understand the question?
Mr. Squires: I would
like to have it again yes,
Chairman Black: You
have to do it into the microphone
Mr. Squires:
Could you repeat the question please?
Councilor Chanyi:
Yes, why was I told that I could not attend?
Mr. Squires: The
reason why you were told is because the meeting was what we are going to
present here and if there was things to discuss here or at our place that we
didn’t want you to bring to here. When we had the meeting, I didn’t know what
was going to be discussed.
Councilor Chanyi:
um hmm
Mr. Squires: And
that’s why we didn’t ask. The first meeting, Mr. Cridland was there and Mr. Wright
which wasn’t a problem. But this last
meeting was, when we had legal representation. We wanted to discuss what we
were going to present here.
Councilor Chanyi:
But you were going to present it here, Mr. Chair, Oh, I’m not going to debate
that.
Mayor Travale: I don’t think its going to get you anywhere.
Councilor Chanyi:
I . . .I . . . that’s fine. I just
wasn’t sure.
Mr. Squires : Is
that alright for an answer?
Chairman Black: Ok
you’ve answered the question. Thank you very much. You can be excused.
Mr. Squires:
Thank you.
Chairman Black: Councilor
Chanyi anything further?
Councilor Chanyi:
Pardon?
Chairman Black: Anything further, go ahead?
Councilor Chanyi:
No, not right now, not at this moment.
Chairman Black: Mayor Travale?
Mayor Travale:
Thank you very much Mr. Chairman, um, so, just to be clear, Mr. Klein, um, there
is a land owner on the 4th concession that has said he does not want
his access uh restricted or taken away?
Mr. Cline : That’s
correct
Mayor Travale:
ok, and where on the 4th concession does this gentleman or this
person live?
Mr. Cline : He lives
on the west side of the bridge, fairly close to where the bridge is, am I
correct on that Ross?
Mr. Kenline:
About halfway in the concession
Mr. Cline : Halfway in
the concession
Mayor Travale: Half way down? Thank you very much. And, would any of the,
well, this particular landowner have his land or her landlocked?
Mr. Cline : Yes, Yes
Mayor Travale: Landlocked?
Ok, and if he were given a key would it still be landlocked in your estimation
sir?
Mr. Cline : Um he may
have access to it. I wouldn’t have access to it.
Mayor Travale:
You wouldn’t have access to it? Is that
the definition of landlocked?
Mr. Cline : Pardon?
Mayor Travale: Is
that the definition of landlocked?
Mr. Cline : In the
context of highways, yes. You have a
public right as I do to go on any road.
Mayor Travale:
No, I appreciate the free advice.
Mr. Cline : Pardon
Mayor Travale: I
appreciate the free advice, you said you weren’t cheap. Um, so at the meeting
that you attended, with uh, with the folks, uh, did this flyer come up at all?
Mr. Cline : No, I’ve
never seen this flyer
Mayor Travale:
Where they illegally use our logo and make disparaging remarks about people?
Mr. Cline : Well, why
are you questioning me Mr. Mayor? I know nothing about this.
Mayor Travale:
No, I just, I just want to make sure.
Mr. Cline : I’m not
here to take abuse from you or anybody or Ms. Chanyi, I am not party to this
information. I’m hired as a lawyer to represent these people. What they do on
their own time is their business.
Mayor Travale:
Thank you, that’s all I need to know. Ok
Mr. Cline : And I resent
the implication.
Mayor Travale: I
did not make an implication at all, I asked you a question sir, and you
answered it. Thank you very much. Now second or thirdly I guess it is,
Chairman Black: Deep
breaths.
Mayor Travale:
Yeah, everybody.
Mayor Travale:
Thirdly, um, if the gate were moved, to make sure that this complainants or
this landlords property was not landlocked, would that satisfy your client?
Mr. Cline : Mayor Travale,
you obviously did not hear me, when I introduced the topic. I indicated to you
and through you, or through the chair to counsel, I was here to request the
repeal of a bylaw.
Mayor Travale: I
heard that very clearly. But, I’m saying that council has the right to close a
road and if we move that gate, the question is pretty straightforward, would
the land in question not be landlocked?
Mr. Cline : I presume
it depends on where you move the gate.
Mayor Travale:
Ok, thanks a lot.
Chairman Black: Ok, anything further from around the table? Seeing no other questions. Uh Mr Klein, thank
you very much for attending.
Mr. Cline : Thank you
Mr. Chair
Chairman Black: we appreciate that, uh, you take your seat. And
uh, could we have a motion to receive this information, Mayor Travale, those in
favor of receiving this information? Unanimous!
And we do have an associated report and uh it shall be delivered by, I
believe Mr. Cridland, and its in regards to this same topic, so, I’ll just pass
it over to you, Bill and Eric.
Eric D’Hondt:
Through the chair, um, we have a bit of a dilemma here, and in the report, it
says uh, or we did have legal opinion and indicated that uh we, this council
does have the right to close roads, but if challenged, uh it would have to be
taken up uh further. Um, our learned friend here has provided us some background
information and uh, my suggestion is that uh, we defer our report and allow our
solicitor to review the new information and also review the um petition that’s
been put forth because uh there’s a lot of interpretation that can occur with
respect to keeping the road open. If we keep it open, we have to upgrade it to
a certain extent. The bridge structure, yes its in our Road Needs Study, it was
scheduled for some work uh in the near future, I don’t know precisely what year
it was, but in its present condition and uh, Mr. Cridland has provided you some
photographs of it, it uh it is a liability from, for the, for the , from the
council’s perspective. It has no railings on it, the bridge platform itself uh,
is adequate for uh four wheelers and a
single vehicle, but certainly uh does have a load limit on it and it should
have rails on it uh, things we have to address, that’s outlined in the
report. If you like, Bill can present
his report, but uh, I think we have a lot of new information here that needs to
be vented through the county’s solicitor.
So, from a Staff’s perspective, that’s a, Bill has done his work, he
initially had support from the two people. Certainly if there was a
misunderstanding, it certainly was clarified this evening, and uh, staff are
prepared to uh go further with the report if you want, or if you want us to
defer it.
Chairman Black: So,
staff are recommending then that the report be differed, that we uh, have our
lawyers advice, and uh, also um present him with the petitions as well. So, committee
members, Councilor Wells?
Councilor Wells:
Mr. Chair, thank you very much, I certainly would be willing to move that uh,
that motion that we uh, defer this and that we uh give the staff direction to
seek legal advice as well, as to come back with the further report on the
matters before us.
Chairman Black: And present the petition as well.
Councilor Wells: That
is also correct Mr. Chair.
Chairman Black: Clerk,
have that motioned uh, is that uh understood by committee members? Uh,
discussion, further discussion about it, councilor Wells, will now speak to it.
Councilor Wells:
And that will also come back to an estimated cost if we uh leave it open, I
presume?
Eric D’Hondt: Yeah.
Councilor Wells: That
would be part of that report?
Eric D’Hondt:
Through the Chair, Bill’s report, presently, addresses those costs to open the
road entirely, uh, it was one of the options that was proposed in, in this uh in
his report, but since he still had uh, property owner on both sides of the
road, it’s the same one, support gating it, that’s why Bill did recommend
moving the gates to in front of those properties.
Councilor Wells:
Thank you Mr. Chair.
Chairman Black: Councilor
Luke?
Councilor Luke:
Mr. Chair, the other thing and I’ll certainly support the motion, the thing
that I would like answered, whether its tonight or whether its in that report,
but we heard Mr. Klein in his deputation say that we have not followed our own
road closure via the public meeting, which is in our roads and lanes and alleys
um, closure, and uh, if in fact we have, I’d like to know that, and um because,
I am as much a part of that mistake if its made as anybody else. So, I don’t
know whether that needs to be answered, tonight, or the clerks department could
just touch on that or just leave it for, for the report, its fine with me, but
uh, we need to know if we don’t follow our own procedures. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Black: Councilor
Luke, the clerk just whispered in my ear that that would be reviewed by our
lawyer, so we will get the answer to your question.
Councilor Luke: That
would be great if the lawyer reviewed it, thank you.
Chairman Black: So, anything further? Those in favor of the
motion, it’s carried unanimously! Thank
you, and thank you for those in attendance. Sorry we couldn’t give you an
immediate answer, but uh, one will be forthcoming, thank you. You can certainly stay if you’d like. You’re
more than welcome.
Official End of the
meeting
General chatter
Mayor Travale “How
many people live on that road?”
“I don’t know”
“It must be a hell of a lot. “
Mayor Travale “140 people live on a dirt road? Where are
these people from? Minneapolis?”
Mayor Travale “What’s
their interest in that road?”
Mayor Travale “How
come they must use it?”
“I don’t know”
Chairman Black: Ok,
We’re gonna . . .
Mayor Travale: I
could get a petition on anything and get a thousand signatures, just walk up
and down the streets, people sign petitions and don’t even know what they are
signing
Chairman Black: Ok,
if we could get downstairs as quickly as you can without shoving anybody down
the steps, we certainly would appreciate it, and we can move on with our next
deputation.
Chairman Wells: Mr.
Black, while we have to wait for a couple of minutes could we have a five
minute break,
Chairman Black: Is that alright for everyone? Show of hands?
Ok, we will recess for 5 minutes.
General chatter . . .
“5 minutes only “
“So was that Mr. Freder”
“Yeah and he wants extra time for his deputations”
You can hear two upraised voices, but not make out too much
of what is being said, only:
Mr. Cline :. . . my
integrity and embarrassing me in that room. . . I’m not interested, you should
have enough knowledge to know I’m the lawyer representing . . . you are taking
a personal attack on me, and I. . . you
were! . . .
Ms Chanyi : Excuse
me?
Mr. Cline : Why
wouldn’t you, would you like me to . . .
with your lawyer? . . . you wouldn’t
agree to . . .
General chatter . . .
“Are you going to stick around for a while?”
“There’s just so many layers to this, so many layers to this”
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